Transcript
Meisha: Hello everybody, I’m Meisha. Welcome to my show, and thank you for listening. This show is all about leadership and professional development. Everything you need to know to be more competent in your professional life, including communication skills, personal productivity, leading without authority, emotional intelligence, and more. By listening each week, you will acquire unique tools and gain exposure to proven tips, and wisdom to help you in your professional development. And today we are going to be focusing on culture within our environment. And I’m going to be introducing in just a moment, my guest today who’s going to be helping us with that- but before we do that, let me go ahead and jump into a couple of things. One- Benny, so if we have anybody who might want to call in- how would they do that?
Benny: They can reach us here at the station at 425-373-5527 or 888-298-5569, which conveniently spells out KKNW. Again, those numbers are 425-373-5527 or 888-298-5569, and welcome back.
Meisha: Thank you.
Benny: You’re welcome.
Meisha: It’s great to be here. Actually it was really cold this morning, commuting across the Sound.
Benny: Yeah.
Meisha: With the fog, and being on the ferry, and the fog horns and-
Benny: Yeah and I got to do it again. I love radio.
Meisha: It’s a lot of fun.
Meisha: I was like “I’ve got to get across the water for Benny”
Benny: Benny’s got to be there, he’s going to be there.
Meisha: Sounds great. Okay, so let’s see. What else do we have, some other logistics is- also if you have any questions on anything that deals with personal productivity, leadership, or just some issues that you’re dealing with at work, you’re welcome also to email me on my website. On the website is a couple of things: One, you can email me any questions and I’d be happy to either email you back or answer those on the air. Also, there’s a lot of tools and resources on there as well that might be helpful. So the website is MeishaRouser.com that’s spelled M-E-I-S-H-A Rouser R-O-U-S-E-R dot com. So do please, send me some emails there. Okay, so let me introduce my honored guest this morning. So hello Sue, it’s wonderful to have you here.
Sue: Hello Meisha.
Meisha: So Sue McNab has a twenty plus years success track record as a corporate officer in human resources, retail operations, and community affairs, as well as organizational development, and so much more. She has helped organizations such as Wizards of the Coast- I might have to ask you a little bit about that- and Seattle’s Best Coffee, and she’s helped them maneuver through some major change initiatives. Recently, Sue has helped turn the culture of PEMCO Insurance from a hierarchical parent culture, which is like a “follow the rules and do what management says”, to a culture of involvement and inclusion, which would be more like “everyone brings their whole self to work”, and we’ll discuss what that means. Join Sue and I, as we explore how anyone can create a winning workplace culture. And what I mean by where anyone- it can be anybody who is in managerial, supervisory, or even just working with your coworkers. How can you create an environment that is more inclusive? So again, welcome, Sue.
Sue: Thank you. Thank you Meisha, I’m glad to be here.
Meisha: Yeah, and also, I have to say, she was with PEMCO- so we were just saying you’re on day five of retirement.
Sue: Day five of retirement.
Benny: Hey, congratulations! I’ll give you a round of applause for that one. Good for you.
Sue: Thank you.
Meisha: Yeah, and I was asking Sue- I don’t think this was the first time that you’ve retired. So we’ll see how this one goes.
Sue: Yes. Last time I lasted a year.
Meisha: A year?
Sue: So, we’ll see what happens this time.
Benny: I’ll just bring the applause back later too-
Sue: That’s alright. Okay! That’s great!
Meisha: And the other thing too that you had mentioned- if you don’t mind my mentioning it too- Sue was also just sharing with me before we came on, that she was heading down to Australia in a couple of weeks to teach a program down there.
Sue: Right. On culture and it’s in an international school of business in Darwin, Australia. And so, I’ll be working with students primarily on how they adopt the cultures in an international perspective. And that’s a real challenge for some students that come to the United States, or even Australians that work for American companies.
Meisha: Yeah.
Sue: So that will be my focus.
Meisha: Oh that’s going to be so fun.
Sue: It should be a lot of fun. And it’s in the land of Kakadu and Crocodile Dundee, so I’m sure there will be some and crocodiles to enjoy, while I’m there.
Meisha: That will be great. Well, I also liked the whole idea about the culture, because culture- well international culture- we’re mostly today going to be talking about culture within an organization.
Sue: Right.
Meisha: But it sounds like this class is going to be addressing the one that you’re doing down in Australia, also culture within global culture- I have to do a show on that. Maybe I’ll have to have you back-
Sue: Sure.
Meisha: once you get back, and we’ll do a show on culture internationally, because that’s really affecting us. We’re no longer just dealing with people in our own workplace, but we have people that are- like Amazon here, great example, people from Germany that they’re working with on a daily basis, and other countries, and it is different.
Sue: Right, Microsoft too. They learned that they had to- one of the classes that they had to teach, or one of the things that they had to expose their staff to is how you work in another culture within the business community. Because everyone is different, and that can either make or break the success of going into a country.
Meisha: Yeah.
Sue: Starbucks also, going into China, was an interesting story. So it’s a very challenging perspective because today, business is not just local. Business is international.
Meisha: Yeah.
Sue: And the global impact- even PEMCO, which works with Washington in Oregon- there were impacts to us in terms of international, global culture. In terms of people that move here and covering them in insurance- all those kinds of issues. So it’s a pervasive kind of issue for us.
Meisha: Yeah, and I could see it also is not just big corporations, even the small businesses. We’re global now.
Sue: That’s right.
Meisha: So we may have to have you back on. Later on the show, I’ll be pinging you for that one. Alright so let’s talk about today then. So it would be great to get a little background of what was it like pre-culture at PEMCO, and then what the goal was.
Sue: Well the company had been around for a long time, sixty years, and it had been formed by a very strong entrepreneur, his name was Mr. Handy, and he had a great story. And this is the kind of thing that legends are made of, but what happened was the teachers got together in the state of Washington, and in the early 30s they were paid by warrant, which was just a little piece of paper they took to the bank, and they got money. But what happened was the bank started charging the teachers to cash this. And Mr. Handy led the charge and set up a small cigar box operation in the back of the Seattle Library. And the teachers would come in, and they would cash their warrant, and he would not charge them. And then from that, grew the credit union. So the school’s credit union, now called ?????, was formed there. And then they said “Well, we need a place to put this money” so, in those days, credit unions had to have a bank that managed the money, and so the bank was formed, which was part of our operation. And of course the teachers said “Well, you know we’re very responsible people, so we’ll set up our own insurance company.” And so that PEMCO insurance was born. It was a very hierarchical organization from the perspective that Mr. Handy was a strong entrepreneur, and following him, Mr. Stanley O. McNaughton, was also the strong leader of the organization. And we needed to change. We needed to- all the lizards in the world with Geico, and Flo with Progressive, they were all coming in to our part of the world. And we needed to compete with them, so thus was born our campaign of the northwest ads that we have, which are northwest types, which was one way we could compete. And that was a culture thing too. It was “We are a Northwest company” and so we ended up having to tell that to the world, and we were able to compete that way too. And so that was reflective of how we wanted to be inside the company too. So, we had to breakdown all those barriers and change things around. We did have to do some layoffs in the process, because we had to restructure the business. But actually, on some of the blogs in town, it says “If you’re going to be laid off by anybody, be laid off by PEMCO”, because we did it with class. And we did it in such a way that everyone was still part of the group, part of the team. It’s just that their position was eliminated.
Meisha: Yeah. So the hierarchy then, when you came in, was really strict, it flows from the top-down.
Sue: Oh yeah. We even had the traditional corporate offices with the windows- the execs along the window and the assistant sitting outside. It was so 1950s it was pretty good. My first day on the job I said “I’d like a laptop”, I came from Starbucks and everybody had a laptop. So I asked for a laptop and everyone kind of looked at me funny and said “A laptop. Of course, why would you want a laptop?” So that was the beginning and we changed things around, we had such things as, everything was part of our culture, so we had to take a part- it was like peeling an onion, we had to look at every aspect of culture. Even the cafeteria, we served things like macaroni and cheese, and corndogs. We had lousy coffee. All of those things were not part of a performance culture. We wanted healthy salads, and healthy situation, and people were able to make their own coffee no matter what time of the day or night it was. Minor point, small thing- but it’s all part of the picture of what creates the culture in which you live. We even put in a relaxation center, which was head palm trees, and nice couches- because we were asking people to work harder in a different perspective and for different periods of time than they had in the past, and we needed a place for them to just debrief. If you spend the whole day on the phone talking to people about things that happened in their life that maybe aren’t the most positive, such as a car accident, or whatever, you need a place to decompress. And so that was again, part of our culture. And a few years before, that would never have been heard of- that somebody could do that.
Meisha: And so management from the top-down supported that.
Sue: Correct. And we began to involve employees in the process too. For example, we had a group of employees called the Excellence Award Winners. And they had been nominated by their peers as people who were leaders. So I decided I had this great group of people who I could bring in- we were careful not to negotiate about anything related to wages, hours, and working conditions for all the HR people out there that know you don’t do that. But we did bring them in and talked about things like changing performance appraisals, and changing certain benefits in terms of “How could we bring wellness into the workplace?” that kind of thing. And it was a fabulous opportunity for me to get to know people, and again leading from within, leading from where you sit within the culture. And those folks really helped transition the culture. I just, kind of, directed traffic.
Meisha: Yeah. So then, let me clarify on that then. And I know this might be hard to answer. So there was a certain element of change in the culture coming from the top-down.
Sue: Correct.
Meisha: But in the meantime too, it sounds like most of you were aware, even that doesn’t necessarily mandate change.
Sue: Right.
Meisha: It has to be organic. Again, people support what they helped to create. So there was an element too of the culture being changed by the employees’ engagement themselves.
Sue: Correct. And the interesting thing is there’s a great quote out there. And it’s been attributed to a great number of people, but the reality is, the quote is “Culture eats strategy for breakfast”. And it is true. You could have the best strategy in the world but if your culture doesn’t support that, you can forget it, because you will not be successful as an organization, and your people are your brand. So they have to be onboard within- and especially in our situation at PEMCO because of the fact that we have customer service people who talked to customers on the phone, that’s the point of contact. And then an average of 10 percent of our customers have a claim in any one particular year, then the claims adjuster is the point of contact. It’s not the executives, it’s not the CEO, it is the actual employee face to face with the customer. That’s where culture gets translated. They’ve got to be onboard, they’ve got to understand it, they’ve got to feel respected, and they’ve got to feel that they’re part of the whole operation in terms of making it work.
Meisha: Yeah, so in a sense to what you’re saying, they need to feel some control in this.
Sue: Definitely.
Meisha: I’m going to repeat that quote where you said that “Culture eats strategy for breakfast”.
Sue: Correct.
Meisha: That’s great.
Sue: And it’s true. You can have the best strategy and the fancy motto over the door, and our mission-vision statements, all those great things- if nobody operationalizes it, and you’re not disciplined about making sure that it’s part of every person’s existence at work, you’re not going to be successful. Everyone’s got to understand the culture. They have to understand what the strategy is. And they have to all head in the same direction. They have to know what it takes to win. And we do that together. You don’t do that as management and the employees.
Meisha: Yeah. Okay so now let me ask you a question, I’m dying to know this one too because I’m thinking- okay so you have hierarchy, you have management up above saying “Hey, we’re going to create this great culture now, and we want you to help us out.” So you have middle management saying “Okay here’s the flavor of the week. This is what we’re doing.” First of all, what kind of resistance did you get maybe from middle management, or even just from the people in the beginning, especially if- I’m guessing some of those people have been there for a long time?
Sue: Yeah the average length of service at PEMCO was 13 years, so even when I “retired” with 11 years of service, I was still in the lower end of the echelon in terms of years of service. The thing about PEMCO particularly was it’s a great company. It’s built on values, and everyone modeled those values, so we had folks who would get up from a Sunday dinner if they were an adjuster, and if a customer was contacted- was given to them, they would go and take care of that customer. We were known for the fact that many times our adjusters would get to a house fire before the fire department left. So we could take care of the customer. And that was like the religion of the company. So because that value proposition was shared by everyone, it was easy to build a strong culture because we used the values as the foundation. The other thing is that you have to have a strong skin, because not everything is going to work. Because I had not been there that long, I had the reputation as being the person who was changing things around, and if we would just ever go away, it would be wonderful. But after a while, I learned too, that involving as many folks, as many voices as possible in making the changes- that would be the most important way to make it work.
Meisha: Yeah.
Sue: So we did as much as we could to involve everyone. And you just break down the barriers. In the new offices for PEMCO, you’re not going to see long executive offices with people sitting outside, it’s all glass.
Meisha: The gatekeepers.
Sue: Right. It’s all over- and they’re all over the building.
Meisha: Okay, so I’m going to go ahead and take a pause here for a second. So you’re listening to the Meisha Rouser Show, and I’m talking with Sue McNab, and we’re talking about changing the culture within your organization. And when we come back from this break that we’re going to continue on- so how does the average person help to change, and what kind of resistance were you having too? So we’ll be right back after this brief break.
[Commercial Break]Meisha: Welcome back to the Meisha Rouser Show. And we are talking with my guest, Sue McNab, and I think Sue now has become one of Benny’s new admirers, because they were talking about her role at- what was it called, The Wizards of the Coast?
Benny: Yeah.
Sue: Wizards of the Coast.
Meisha: And I’m naïve, and have no idea what you guys are talking about.
Benny: We never circled back to it even though you asked about it earlier. So I used to shop there. It was a great store and still it currently is. I don’t do much of that anymore, but I want to get my boys into that now. After we’re rekindling it, but a little about a background with her, she used to be within relations with the higher up I guess, with administration and stuff like that so, it’s good times.
Sue: That’s right.
Benny: It just brought back a lot of memories for me growing up too, so it was great.
Sue: Yup, it was a great- great products. Great products.
Meisha: Sounds like it was a lot of fun.
Sue: Well it taught kids- in those days we did it face to face. And the best part was that it taught kids positive competition. And it was also recognized as an intellectual sport by ESPN. I had parents come up to me and say “My kid is a nerd. And he was really depressed. And he found Magic. And he is a math whiz, and he began to play the game Magic. And he changed totally, because he could excel at something. He didn’t play well in sports or whatever, but he could play Magic.” And we had international competitions. Kids came from all over the world to play the game. So it’s wonderful.
Meisha: That is really neat.
Sue: It’s great.
Meisha: Sounds like I missed out on something there growing up.
Sue: Very good game.
Meisha: Alright, so we are- welcome back again to the Meisha Rouser Show. And again, if you’re- you can listen to these shows also. You don’t have to listen to them live every Tuesday morning at 9 AM if that doesn’t work for your schedule, you can also find all of the recordings on my website at MeishaRouser.com and you can also get a podcast for them too. So again, my website’s MeishaRouser.com M-E-I-S-H-A-R-O-U-S-E-R. And we are talking with Sue about changing culture. And one of the things we had before we took the break was for change to be able to take place. Also was the realization that it needed to be organic too, that the individuals within the organization had to embrace that as well. And it sounds like too, the big thing that you guys were trying to do when you were doing this at PEMCO was to get them to be individual contributors versus, again the old way of doing things was just “Do your job and wait until we tell you what else to do” to now “Let’s be a little more innovative. Let’s be individual contributors. Let’s take more ownership.” That I bet was maybe a little difficult for some.
Sue: Well it was, especially when you paired it with some reorganization of the workforce and laying some people off. But we did it with respect. And we helped people start a new life. There was nothing about “you get a box and you’re given two weeks salary” everyone was given a decent transition pay, so to speak. And one of the fun things we did was when you got a new job, we kept in touch with you, and when you found a new job, the CEO would send flowers to you on your first or second day of work. And the interesting thing was that we had other CEOs call my CEO and say “Boy you’re really one-upping me here, because this is my new employee” and everyone stops by your desk and says “Oh where’d you get them from? Well my former CEO” Also sends a message that that person was a valued employee. It just wasn’t that they had any role to continue with in PEMCO.
Meisha: Yeah.
Sue: So, how you treat others is representative of your culture. And it’s how people will feel about your company afterwards too.
Meisha: Yeah, and so then part of the theme I can see there is also right before break. You had mentioned what helps in that is also when everybody really understands and shares the values.
Sue: For sure.
Meisha: And I would guess that that’s part of it too, is if I was a supervisor or a manager or just a team lead of- some organizations are really good about the values, and others, it’s just this thing on the wall. How do you make those real?
Sue: You socialize them. So we had responsibility and courage as two of our values. And we actually did some interesting things. We had employees who would, step outside the box in terms of claims adjusting, customer service. One of our employees came up with the idea of humble pie, for example. She took responsibility for the fact that she made a mistake and what she did was she sent the customer a pie, and said “I just feel like I made a mistake here, I’m just sending you this pie, I hope you enjoy it. And it’s my effort to say that this is my humble pie.” Well that caught on, and so we ended up contracting with the pie dealer. Luckily we didn’t have to send it too often. It’s not making fun of it. It’s making it fun. They weren’t major mistakes. They were just small mistakes usually to do with paperwork and the customer loved it. We also were known as- like I said earlier, the delivery of the service, the delivery of the kind of culture that you are, happens in that moment between the customer and the employee. And it’s not management, and it’s not your fancy building, and it’s not what kind of ads you have. It’s all about that encounter right there in that point of contact. And so, that person has to have your values as the baseline for how they’re operating. So everyone has to understand what you stand for. And you have to be diligent as owner of a company. Or as a manager of a company, you have to be diligent about making sure that those values are active and socialized every day with the employees. By modeling the behavior, you treat employees as you would like them to treat your customer. And so that’s the best way to model the behavior.
Meisha: Yeah, and I love what you’re saying there in regards to “I’ll get a lot of pushback from people” But the organization supports that, management supports that, but what if you work in an organization where they don’t? You even said this too, as I try to explain to people, you can create your own little bubble within the organization. If you want to create a culture of inclusion, even if your organization does not necessarily support that, you can create that, as you were saying, by modeling the way.
Sue: You can. And I’ll tell the story of our receptionist. She owned the front area. And that was hers, and there was no management that told her that that was hers, but God forbid that you would drop a piece of paper in the front lobby because that was Sheryl’s area. She kept it clean. There was fresh coffee for her customer, a little bowl of candy, a small table for kids to play at while they’re waiting for their mom and dad. That was her area. She owned that, and nobody told her to own it, nobody sent a four page memo that told her it was hers, she just took it. And so that’s the key- is find a space in which you operate in your company, and own it. Find the place, the little piece of real estate that you can own, that becomes yours and you’re known for. And you end up being accountable for one particular aspect of the business. And that’s yours, you own it. And people can count on you to make that run smoothly. And it makes no difference what you do- we spend a third of our life at work. We might as well have fun doing it. And we might as well feel like we own something. And if you can help people feel like that third of their life, is an area where they’re making a contribution, and that they’re valued for their skills and participation, then it could affect the other two-thirds of their life positively.
Meisha: Yeah and so it sounds like also what you’re saying “Is this a choice?”
Sue: It is a choice.
Meisha: It’s not something that you have to wait for somebody to give you permission to own whatever it is that you want to own. It is a choice.
Sue: And that’s why you go back to the hiring process. You want to make sure that you hire people that get that, that understand that if they come to work for your company, they come to work with the other team members, that they actually have a role in making the place successful. Regardless of what their contribution is, it’s all part of who they are. It’s all part of what the company stands for. And it’s all part of the tapestry and fabric of all these fibers that work together to make a strong image, and the effect of that company. And so that’s key- is that you create an environment where people are based on values they can participate, that they feel like they have the freedom to own their particular activity, or whatever little piece of real estate they can carve out for themselves. And that everyone is treated respectfully, and so when they walk in the door, they feel like they can take their whole self in the door. Whoever they are on the planet, they can bring that person in the door.
Meisha: Nice.
Sue: And be respected.
Meisha: Wonderful. And so if you just joined us, you’re listening to the Meisha Rouser Show, where we’re exploring professional leadership development with Sue McNab, who just recently left PEMCO, when she was vice-president there when she left. And so, just now when you were saying that you can take the ownership- I’m thinking about whether some listeners out there think like “Yeah, that sounds like Utopia, that’s the perfect environment, but I’m working on a team where I have no authority and no control and there’s this one team member who just butts the system, who we can’t to do anything” Any words of advice on how you can create still, that culture, when you have those people that aren’t quite as engaged in it.
Sue: All the research shows that there’s about 10 or 11 percent that you’re never going to move. So if you have a hundred people in the organization there’s 10 or 11 people that are just never- they’re always going to be Eeyore, for anyone who knows Winnie the Pooh. You know “Oh the sky is falling, this is a terrible day” You know what, don’t concentrate on those people. You’re better off concentrating on the people you can move to be more involved. And just know that those 10 or 11 are going to be there forever, unless you can turn them around, and it’s much more difficult to turn them, than it is for the rest of the group. So it’s like anything- even with working with kids. You don’t concentrate on the naysayers. You concentrate on the ones that are enthusiastic. And pretty soon, those naysayers will come over from the dark side. And so, it’s a great opportunity to affect the relationship. I think in terms of people who you don’t get along with at work, the best thing to do is find the point of common ground. Maybe it’s something outside of work. Maybe it’s some way that you can create a relationship. Maybe it’s a shared hobby. Maybe it’s kids. Maybe it’s soccer teams. Whatever it might be, if you find a way to personalize the relationship with that person, then it becomes more difficult for them to be the standout problem within the company, or within your relationship with them at work.
Meisha: Yeah, and that makes me think about too, one of the issues I hear a lot when organizations, or managers, or team members are trying to create that more engaged winning culture of “everybody’s taking ownership”, is it’s hard also because our workplace is “we just work”. And we don’t have that “coffee” or “water cooler” that we can just sit around and form those informal relationships. It’s just become work. So was there something that you found too that, either in your past or at PEMCO or wherever where- how can you help foster those relationships?
Sue: I think what you end up doing is, finding ways in which people can do things outside of the workplace that bring them together. For example at PEMCO, you get 8 hours a year to do a volunteer project in the community. And the idea was not to do it alone. You did it with other people, perhaps, that you didn’t know very well. It created relationship and it also supported the values. And the other thing is that we were able to have fun cleaning up the neighborhood, or work serving breakfast and lunch at Orion Center, which was right down the street from where our office was. And so we were able to create times, in which people could socialize together, and we also did the standard training classes, and we felt that it was important that everybody know what it took to win within our culture. And so we did Mileposts, which was the way that our CEO would go around the company and talk to people about the strategy and what was happening, and people had the opportunity to ask questions. And it was an opportunity then, to take them out of the work environment, share, and give them an opportunity to ask questions, and share with each other about what their perspective is. So, you’re always going to have a percentage of your time that’s not directly focused on production. You’re going to have to have the ability to have some time, where people socialize in a way that supports the company, where they’re learning about strategy, where they’re supporting the strategy, where they’re learning what your business is- what’s the new business you have coming? What’s your future? Because if you look at the statistics today, we are getting into a pretty tight job market. So, if you own a business, you’re going to have to create an environment where people want to work for you. It’s not the recession at this point.
Meisha: You know I want to ask one more question before we go to the break. Adding to this is, I’m curious to hear your opinion then too on check-ins like in meetings. I personally think check-ins are great because it creates the space for people to take the time and take off their hat for work and say, “you know, here’s what’s going on with me right now”, and it’s a great way, I think, for people to be able to form those relationships. But I know some people hate them. So, any opinions those?
Sue: We did the thing of bring your whole self to work, and if your child is sick and you come to work, you’re not going to be at work. So we created benefit plans where you could go home and the team would have to gather together to support you. But because you’re bringing your whole self to work, we get it. We understand that- who you are walks in the door. There’s lots of stress to try to be somebody that you’re not. So, the important thing is to create an environment where it’s okay to bring that, and remembering that the reason that you’re there in the first place is to support the business. So, you’re producing a product, or you’re producing a relationship, or you’re providing a service, whatever it might be, that’s the primary reason you come together and you want to be successful at that. But you have to understand that there’s a human element to delivering that product or service.
Meisha: Nice, I like that. Alright, so we’re going to go ahead and take another break. You’re listening to the Meisha Rouser show, and we are exploring culture within the work place with Sue McNab. We’ll be right back after this break
[Commercial Break]Meisha: And welcome back to the Meisha Rouser Show. We are talking live with Sue McNab this Tuesday morning and remember we are live every Tuesday morning at 9 o’clock on KKNW 1150 AM. And also, you can always be downloading these shows from my website MeishaRouser.com if you would like to hear the past shows, or also set yourself up as a podcast on iTunes and to be able to get all of our shows. Keep in mind also that during our live show, we would love to take any of your calls. So, if you have any questions and it doesn’t even necessarily have to do with the subject that we’re dealing with, but anything that you are struggling with in your professional career, anything with working with employees, communication, confidence, all of that– we’d love to take any of your calls. So keep that in mind too.
Benny: And if you’re at work–
Meisha: Yes?
Benny: You can also use an alias name.
Meisha: Yes.
Benny: We will protect those that don’t want to be on the air right now, or if their boss is listening.
Meisha: Yes.
Meisha: Yes, and if that’s the case, then get on email or get on my website, email me your question and I will address it. Alright, so wonderful, we are continuing to talk about culture with Sue McNab and one of the things- well, let’s summarize so far. I have heard already that some key things about creating culture in your workplace, no matter who you are, either if you’re the owner, if you’re a manager, if you’re a team player- one is really keeping in my mind that it is your choice. That you can, by just you changing, you can help model the way for others to change.
Benny: Right.
Meisha: And the other thing too is that you don’t have to wait for permission to be able to take ownership, to be able to take more responsibility and get more involved. It’s just really a choice to be able to do that. And I always enjoyed hearing that last part- was also you don’t have to check half of yourself out at the door. You can bring your whole self to work.
Benny: That’s right.
Meisha: As long as you know, you keep remembering why you’re there, it’s for the business. But it’s also- we are bringing in a lot of who we are at work. It’s just what we do. And it’s nice to be able to feel comfortable doing that. So, one of my questions that I had then, that I wanted to ask Sue is- so in your transitions of doing this, what was maybe one of the biggest obstacles that you have seen and/or what went surprisingly well when you were trying to implement a new cultural change?
Sue: I think one of the biggest obstacles was to get people to think a different way. They had to look at management at a very different perspective. They had to feel like they were team players with management, and that didn’t always work very well because that wasn’t the way that they had been at the past. So, we had to change. As the executives of the company, we had to change. We had to be more involving. We actually did a whole training class, and it wasn’t just a training program. We called it interactive leadership. We actually took a 150 of our managers and for 5 years, we trained 4 times a year in how we wanted them to show up in the workplace. So, we did things like execution, we trained in execution. We did a whole year on accountability. We brought in servant leadership. We brought in the concept of working with the covey people in terms of trust in the workplace and the speed of trust. And we had fun with it. It wasn’t a training class that you had to go to, “Oh my god, I’ve got to go.” It was more like making it live in between the classes, and modeling again the behavior, and bringing it into sessions, and bringing it into meetings, and talking about what it meant to be accountable. One of the things that worked well from that perspective was that we got to a point where we were always in a- sometimes in the space of victim loop.
Sue: “Oh my god, this is terrible, we’re changing the culture. It’s not like it’s used to be. I might lose my job tomorrow.” And we got to the point where we would say to people, “Okay, you can be in victim loop for another 10 minutes, and then you got to get out of it.” And the accountability class has taught us, it’s common language on how to speak with that. So, what worked, didn’t work very well as we didn’t have a common language in terms of managing this this transition. And so we determined that we needed common language and that’s why we did the interactive leadership series. We also changed the way that we interacted with each other on some of the ways that we would come together. We used to have very traditional kinds of seminars, parties, and Christmas events, and holiday events, and those kinds of things. And, we kind of blew all that up. And we said, “What do you want to do? How do you want to get together?” So we changed the way that we used to do the traditional kinds of gatherings of employees and families, and things because people told us what worked and what didn’t work for them. And we did it from the perspective of asking them. Again, I used these Excellence Award Winner Group. I will say that one thing that didn’t work very well is we changed the wellness program. We decided that wellness would be the way that we could change our culture. So, imagine this, a workplace where people sit on the phones for a long time. They’re getting input from people who have had car accidents, or houses burnt down, terrible kinds of things happening, as well as my bill wasn’t correct, I mean those kinds of things. We needed to move to a digital environment. That was scary for some people. So in the case of wellness, we decided to attach the whole business of digital, to wellness. We had this environment where there was food everywhere at PEMCO, and it wasn’t good food. It was donuts, and cookies, and this kind of stuff. And we just felt like “This is not who we are. We are not going to survive well, because we sit on the phones all day long. We have a lot of stress.” And we had consultants in wellness that came into our cafeterias and said, “You guys are going to need some help.” So we kind of blew things up. And we said, “Okay, we’re changing the food in the cafeteria.” Salad bar became the biggest thing. I will admit the day that we closed the grill, 3 days a week, rather than just have grilled hamburgers everyday and French fries was not pleasant, because some people weren’t very happy. But they learned to live with it.
We required that you filled out a questionnaire in order to get medical benefits, and you paid a surcharge up if you chose not to do that. And people felt that was a little invasion of privacy, but we wanted to get some data. We didn’t look at the data from individuals. We looked at it from what’s the general trend. What are the major things that we need to fix at our work place. And it was things like high blood pressure and overweight. So we did special programs on- brought weight watchers into work. So, it was a holistic view that addressed the problem. But changing it and forcing people, in some ways, to participate was tough. Because they felt it was an invasion of their privacy. But the reality is if any company looks at their balance sheet, they’ll note that benefits are a major portion of their expense. And so, they have a responsibility to provide an environment in which people can be healthy at work, or encouraged to be healthy outside of work. And we didn’t force anybody, but we did encourage people to focus on those behaviors.
I will say that this particular- last year, PEMCO did not have an increase on its medical benefits- charges.
And I think the reason for that was because we were focused more on wellness than we had been in the past.
Meisha: Nice. Okay, so I’m going to summarize, because I heard three things there then with- in regards to change. And again, I’m trying to look at it too from the lens of what if I’m not the CEO and I don’t have control over the benefits and stuff.
Sue: Right
Meisha: But what do I have control over? I’m just the everyday person showing up at work. So one of the things that I’ve heard when we’re trying to help create a more positive change in the environment, one of the things you’ve mentioned is you’ve got to start with yourself. So in your case, you started with the leaders of the company. And it’s funny too. I cannot tell you how many organizations I will go into to do consulting. And I’ll be brought in by the CEO, or the executive team, or whatever, they’ll say, “Okay, look at our culture, because it’s not working. They’re not following our values.” Well, the first place I usually look then, is right at them
Sue: Right. That’s it.
Meisha: So, what’s going on here? And sure enough, they’re usually modeling the way of the behavior that they’re trying to get rid of.
Sue: Right.
Meisha: So one of them, I heard then, is that you really got to start with yourself too. However, you want others to model their way, either if it’s your co-workers. How are you showing up each day then? So, that’s one aspect of it. Second aspect I heard too was then you talked about the training through, with the leaders. It gave you guys a common language. The other thing I’d like to call that is a story. And we talked about that actually in last week’s episode- again, you can get last week’s episode, you can download it from the website- is we talked about the story there. Because so much of change is caught in a story that the words we use, the metaphors, how we do things, we get so involved in it, it’s hard to understand. Okay, when we want to change, we’ve got to change that story, or change our language. So that was another thing I heard. And the third one I heard was when you were talking about the health care, and the program you were creating around that, is also the environment holds in place. It’s amazing how much the environment will hold in place. The change that maybe, you need to change the environment to create the change. So, if you want the employees to start thinking more holistically, well, you need to have a more holistic environment.
Sue: Right. You cannot be an organization focused on wellness and have it be that you have donuts here, and you have offers in the cafeteria that are all based on fat and sugar. It just doesn’t work. We actually had the executives lead walks, and it was funny. In the summertime, we took the most fit exec, he led the fast group.
And then those of us that were probably a little bit slower, we led the slow group. And it was okay, because every one of us participated in some way, and it was like “Tuesday afternoon, walk with Steve. Tuesday afternoon walk with Sue.” And we did it at lunchtime and it became a tradition.
Meisha: What a great idea.
Sue: And it was fun. Plus, again, you have that socializing time where you can share, and just talk to each other, and have a good visit.
And it was a great opportunity.
Meisha: Okay and so that leads me to think about one more question I want to try to get in then before we wrap up. So, I am trying to create a culture with my team, let’s say. And I want them to take a little more ownership. And there’s some people who are more hesitant. Let’s say it’s a confidence thing. I know it’s a confidence thing. Any words of advice on how I can help them feel more confident to take on more ownership?
Sue: I think you have to know the person, and know what their strengths are, and if they’re not confident in a particular area- why not- and find a place where they can shine. Again, bringing that whole self to work, being committed and passionate about where they are, and coming in to a space, and owning a piece of the puzzle, a piece of the tapestry, a piece of real estate, or whatever you want to use as a metaphor, that’s theirs. Their confidence grows as a result of having something they could be successful at. Maybe it’s the front desk. Maybe they put fruit on their desk every day, and they’re known for that. We had other people known for being able to pass out different kinds of pens, and they would collect pens when they go to conferences and stuff. It was a silly thing, but it was their little piece of real estate. And it created conversation. And then when you’re at a conference, you picked up six or seven pens, and brought it to so and so’s desk. It’s a minor point but it becomes something. Everyone gets to be known for something. In terms of the confidence they have to bring their skills to the workplace. And be honored and respected for those skills. And if you can create an environment where that happens, you will definitely be successful as a company.
Meisha: It is really poignant point, simplistic, easy. Goes back to, and I know some managers or some people are thinking, “Uh, would it take so much time to get to know them.” Yeah. But that’s the rewards though, by taking the time. And it could mean creating some type of relationship outside of the work environment. You know, going to a client call together sometimes.
Sue: Right.
Meisha: Or going to have some coffee sometimes. Just something where you can connect with them and start to get to know who are they and what makes them tick and what’s unique about them.
Sue: Right. And I think it may cost you a little money in terms of investment upfront, to give people time to do that in the work place. But the return on investment will be definitely worth it. Because they’ll understand your business more and they’ll be able to become part of your brand, a strong part of your brand.
And that’s very, very important. Your people are your brand.
So the more you’re going to encourage them to be more confident, to bring their whole self into the work place and to share and to grow, the better off you’ll be.
Meisha: Excellent. Alright, so I heard a lot of good things there. One is the big one I think to take away for everybody who’s listening is, it starts with you. And you have a choice. It doesn’t matter where you are in the organization, what your position is.
Sue: For sure.
Meisha: Excellent. So Sue, thank you so much and enjoy your time in Australia, teaching your class down there.
Sue: Thank you.
Meisha: And again this is Meisha Rouser and you’ve been listening to the Meisha Rouser Show. I’m Meisha, coaching you towards your professional goals. Thank you for listening, and I hope you have a fabulous day.