Show Transcript:
Meisha: Hello everyone I’m Meisha and welcome to my show. Thank you so much for listening. This show is all about leadership and professional development. I want to be your resource. If you have any issues that are going on at work, with your boss, with colleagues, this is a show where you can get some tips, where you can learn how to be more productive at work, you can increase your communication skills and so forth.
Today I’m very honored and excited. We have a guest with us today. Our guest is Doug Nathan, he is a conflict engagement specialist. Doug works for King County Office for Alternative Dispute Resolution as a conflict engagement specialist. He does everything from mediation, training, conflict resolution and so forth. Doug has a Masters of Arts in whole systems design and a variety of certifications including being a certified mediator, influencer and learning architect trainer.
For many years Doug had explored the power of poetry to teach leadership and team building skills to MBA students and business professionals.
Recently, I was having a conversation with Doug because he has an event that he’s going to be hosting here in the Seattle area in a couple of weeks. The event is called “Expanding the Narrative: Personal Stories of Government and Public Service.” The purpose of this event is to expand the narrative or story regarding the value and impact of government.
When I was talking to Doug, I was curious about how he was using story, and how he was using that within not only his role as a conflict engagement specialist but also how is he doing that in helping government. When he started talking and sharing with me the story, I then sheepishly asked him, “Would you like to come on the show with me and share that with everybody?” I’m so happy that he agreed… so welcome, Doug.
Doug: Thank you. It’s really great to be here with you, Meisha.
Meisha: Before I forget, the event that Doug is going to be hosting is going to be on Tuesday, May 24th, in the Seattle area. We’ll make sure and circle back around to that at the end of the show.
In past shows I’ve talked about quite a bit about how the “story” that we have when in conflict or resistant to change. I know some of you may be asking, “What do you mean by the story?”. Even if you understand what we mean by the “story”, there still may be that question, “I get listening for the story but I don’t even know what to do with the story.”
So I was really curious, Doug, with this event coming up, what led to that? How did you start bringing story into what you do and how have you found it to be effective?
Doug: I guess what I could say is how specifically this event come about. I’ll start there and then we can kind of backup. So the event is actually hosted by the group I work with, the King County Office of Alternative Dispute Resolution, also the Office of Equity and Social Justice, as well as Pinchot University.
We’ve come together to host the event to try to get the good word of government out there more and to help people learn how do we tell the stories. Because often those stories about the good work are not being told, they’re not helping to inform the larger societal narrative that’s out there, which tends to not be very positive about government. So we are trying to shift that.
In a way, specifically, it came to me that I want to do this event. I joined King County about 3 years ago. I’ve been in private practice as a consultant often going through the door of conflict but doing leadership development and team building with corporations and other state and local government agencies, but I’ve never been an employee.
When I came on board as an employee, I realized I had this story about government that I had to kind of work through, that I was questioning why am I joining an organization that is big, bureaucratic, slow moving, not effective. Frankly, why am I going to be working with people who if they were really talented maybe would have been working with the private sector?
The reason I did was because it afforded an opportunity to work really directly with conflict – you know, you work in private sector, they don’t want to talk about conflict. What they’re willing to talk about is leadership development and team building. I found I got this opportunity in a very direct way to go play with conflict. Okay, I’m going for it. Then I realized I had to work with the story of government in my head.
What I realized though about 6 months into the job was that the people I was interacting with were really smart, really passionate and dedicated to the work they were doing. It really put a spin to the story I had in my head about government workers. I realized, too, that the organization is really focused on finding innovative ways to do more with less. Because that is the reality of the government too, we have to continually find more resources to do the good work that people are trying to do.
I realized that with all this good work going on, so much of it was brand new to me and I’ve been living here for a long time, why wasn’t I more aware of all the efforts that were being done on my behalf as a citizen?
I realized that government employees are kind of humble people. They don’t talk a lot about what they’re doing. I think for a couple of different reasons: one, the humility, two, they’re really more focused on providing service to others and so that’s what they focus on. Three, I think too it’s, you know, you go to a party and people ask you what do you do, and you work for government and there’s such a negative societal narrative out there, it’s hard to come up and say, “Oh, I work for government,” and kind of feel proud about it.
Meisha: That’s so true. Your narrative of when you first started with government makes me realize that I too have a negative narrative about working for government. It goes back to then showing how just as human beings we hold on to a story. And the story stays in place for so long. It defines our views and opinions. For example, the story so many of us hold about government.
I remember it was a couple of years ago, when you first started with King County, you shared that you wanted to start doing some kind of classes around stories, so that people can start sharing their stories and debunk this myth that’s going on out there. It’s so cool how far this has come for you.
Doug: Yeah. I was invited by the training and development group within King County to do this class. I had told them a little bit about the work I’ve done with poetry to teach leadership and team building and she said, “Would you like to do a class for us?”. I said, “It would be really fun.” And I said, “How long do you want — like an hour and a half?” And she said, “Yeah, that will be great.”
So okay, I went and started designing and I thought, “Well, if we’re going to bring people together for an hour and a half, why not half a day?” And so I designed for half a day. And then, well, why not for a full day? Why don’t we call it what it is, it’s really a class about leadership and stories. And so now that class is called “Stories that Lead”.
It helps people to kind of discover their leadership story, how they think of themselves as a leader, what experiences shaped them and how they show up as a leader so that they gain insight about themselves. And then they are also able to share stories that communicate who they are and what they believe, and influence other people in ways that they’re hoping to influence them.
Meisha: I’m curious, when you do those classes do you find that a lot of them are in the rewriting of their story or owning their story? You following me on that?
Doug: I think it can be a process of both. I often think of it first as discovery. It’s really looking back at the experiences that you had, thinking through them, understanding why you made choices that you did and how those choices inform who you are. And in that process of discovery, getting a sense of who you are and then shaping that narrative so that you can not only understand it more deeply yourself but then share it with other people.
Meisha: So, there’s the critic or the cynic in me is saying, “Yeah, okay that’s all great in the woo-woo world,” and yet you brought that into government. You brought that into the leaders of government and said, “We’re all going to talk about stories,” and you even say poetry. I think most people would feel like, “I’m so not going to that class.”
Doug: You know it has been a really fascinating experience. The openness, the eagerness people have to learn. Notice how it kind of blows away your stereotype of the government worker. My experience is that people are really smart. They are really open to new ideas and wanting to learn.
This story idea, some intuitively are already connected with it and they are so grateful to have a place to come and do that exploration and learning. Others, probably maybe a new way of thinking about it. Once they kind of come and put their toe in the water, oh you see them open in the delight of self-discovery and reconnecting with their own purpose and passion. It’s awesome to see it happen.
Meisha: That is so cool. We’re going to take a quick break and then when we come back, what I would love to dive into is to move from talking about this theoretically of how powerful it is to then how do you really do that? How can people really help pull out the story from other people, dissect it and do something with it? We’re going to do that when we come back.
You are listening to the Meisha Rouser Show. We are talking to Doug Nathan and we will be right back after this break.
Meisha: Welcome back to the Meisha Rouser Show. I am Meisha. Today I have the honor of having with me as my guest, Doug Nathan who works for King County Office of Alternative Dispute Resolution. Doug is a conflict engagement specialist. We are talking about stories and the narrative and how you can use those to create change or just even grow and develop.
Doug, where we left off, you were saying, you came in, you started creating this class for leaders to then discover their story. I’m curious, in the class did you just say, “So tell me about your story.”? How did you get them to start, and to explore?
Doug: There is a process involved but the essence of it really is asking a series of questions. Having people do that internal inquiry that helps them learn more about who they are.
In order to do that you need to create the space that feels safe for people to do that. A good amount of the time in that class is spent on creating that space so people feel safe so they can do that work and find those stories.
Specifically, what one of the things we do, is to have them think about what are some challenges they’ve experienced in their lives and what were the choices they made. What do those choices tell them about what’s important to them. They’ll go through a period of writing, talking with others about what they’ve uncovered and it’s in that process of self-reflection, and then reflection with others, that they’re already beginning to do the storytelling — first to themselves and then shaping it as they share it with others.
As you tell a story to somebody, you don’t even have to call it a story, but as you talk to somebody about an experience you are already in that story making process.
We talk about that. We talk about the value of not just telling your story but when you’re listening to somebody telling their story, that quality of listening helps with the shaping of the story. Because they see when you engage and maybe when you disengage. It helps them, I think, go deeper into the story to find what’s real and meaningful for them which is going to be what keeps people listening.
Meisha: I want to pause, for everybody who is listening out there you may be thinking, “I don’t do trainings. What does this have to do with me?” We engage in this process almost everyday. When you have a colleague that’s coming to you because they’re trying to work through something or they’re frustrated about something, if you have an employee, if you have a boss, everybody is moving through their day in their story.
A lot of times when we are trying to maneuver through a conflict situation or somebody is upset or when we are just in a coaching type of role, this is really what we want to be doing, is listening for the story. What are they saying and help ask questions for them to identify it and to start disentangling it. Asking questions like, “Why is it so important? Why did this push my buttons or why am I coming from this perspective? What’s the story that of led you here?”.
Doug: And coaching is a really important way that I use this story work. What I do is help people especially when they’re kind of in the grip of conflict. Often when I meet them they’ve got a tightly wound conflict story and the work is really about helping them look at that story and begin to see it from different perspectives. Maybe the other person’s perspective. How did the other person see what happened, what were they thinking, what were they feeling?
Often, when we’ve got our conflict stories we are not thinking about the other person’s experience. We’re thinking about what happened to us and how unjust that was. So we help them to start loosening their grip on that conflict story by seeing it from different perspectives, bringing in information they may not have been considering.
And in that process they were able to examine the story, loosen their grip on it and often begin to shift it to a version that begins to allow for more hope. Often, I work then with the other party to do the same and when I can bring them together, I’m often able to help them begin to interweave a new narrative that offers a lot more hope for them moving forward and towards better results. Both for relationship and for whatever the issues are that brought them there.
I think that’s a really important part about stories, it can sound kind of woo-woo, we’re talking about stories, we’re sharing stories, but they have great impact in the results that we get both personally and interpersonal with other people and the results in our work. That’s why it’s important to pay attention to it.
Meisha: I think for some people they get caught up on the word “story.” That’s why sometimes you’ll see narrative instead. By the way, some people think it’s woo-woo, but scientifically it’s proven that this is how we make meaning as human beings.
It’s our story and how our stories link to others stories, that’s how we make meaning. That’s why we want to talk through things. That’s why when we get frustrated we need somebody to talk with.
So now I want to come back to when you were explaining how tightly they were holding on to that story. If you all could just imagine here’s Doug holding this fist, a visual of a tight, tight story and then how do you to start to relax that grip.
If you are the one coaching, you realize that the person coming to you, whatever the issue is, that they are holding so tightly on to this thing and it’s hard to think about what kind of questions to even ask them.
In fact, I get asked that a lot, “I get this theoretically. But, I don’t know what kind of questions to ask. Is there a template?” I’ve even had some people ask, “Can you send me a template of questions I should be asking my employees when they’re upset?”
Doug: You know what does so much of the work? Question’s one tool. They’re really important too, but they’re one tool. Kind of the foundation of whatever tools you’re going to use is your presence.
Meisha: What do you mean?
Doug: It is how you show up, the quality of your listening, the space you create for the other person to feel safe and have room to share their stories. That presence, that you’re attuned and attentive, caring and wanting to hear and then actually listening is really critical.
In the classes, we actually take time to create that space and help people get in that place. When I’m coaching I create that for other people so that they can feel safe to share.
Because if you don’t have that presence then people don’t want to share or the stories they share will remain those sort of unhealthy conflict stories. There’s a lot of deep, identity issues that you end up kind of exploring in helping people see more clearly and to do that kind of work, it’s not therapy. That’s not at all the intent but it is helping them understand their meaning. So, I love to use that word, and how the way they’re creating meaning or seeing things in that moment may not be serving them very well or the results they care about.
Meisha: There’s a couple of good nuggets there that I want to make sure and emphasize. When you’re saying “creating the space” and “how we show up”, to do this requires emotional intelligence. When you are there holding the space you genuinely are concerned with what’s going on with them.
Doug: You know where your listeners could go to if they really want a great resource to see that model? Go to YouTube and search for Carl Rogers, the Gloria interview. It’s an awesome interview where you will see Carl Rogers, father of modern psychology, and how he works with her is really illustrative of the power of presence and not directing someone but really creating the space for them to discover what’s important for them, to explore their story.
He asks some questions. What he does more of though is really reflecting back what he is experiencing from her so she can see it more clearly and respond to it and deepen her own inquiry. That is awesome story crafting, I would say. What he’s helping her to do is really look at her story and see where it’s serving her and where it’s not.
Meisha: That’s great. Okay, if you are listening you can always go back and look at the transcript on my website or listen to the show again to get that resource.
One of the things that I want to really emphasize is it’s how we show up that creates the space. Are we genuinely there for the other person or are we irritated, or really busy. When we are we really are not being present with the other person, and that will come across and they won’t share their story and they won’t feel comfortable to share it. I wanted to make sure we nail that.
I heard in there, too, it’s not coming up with these brilliant questions, it’s just getting curious. When you’re listening to them, what struck you? Maybe you’re starting to feel anxious and then you can even reflect that back to them, “It sounds like this has really got you feeling anxious. Is that true?” And maybe that will help them to get going, “Yeah, I’m feeling anxious.” “Okay, why?” You untangled that.
Doug: The story is causing you to feel that. You’re right.
Meisha: It’ just more of being curious versus thinking of THE big question to ask to help unravel that narrative.
Doug: Well, if you’re stuck thinking about what’s the next right question, you are probably in your own thoughts too much and you are not connected enough with where the other person is. If you’re attuned to where they are and you’re open to that, you will find questions coming to you or not even questions, but the reflecting back what your experiencing in a way that helps the other person open up.
Notice that what we’re talking about now isn’t storytelling but it is story listening which helps someone craft their story with purpose and that’s part of the work that we do.
Meisha: That’s awesome. We are just about out of time then. Again, if anybody is interested in seeing Doug at work and also seeing what he has created, you will want to attend the “Expanding the Narrative”, that is going to be on Tuesday, May 24th of this month. It is in a couple of weeks.
Doug: They can go to the site, https://expandingthenarrative.com/about/, and they can read some examples of these personal stories written by government employees as well as partners of government that explain the good work they’re doing, the purpose and passion they bring and how it’s serving the public.
Meisha: That’s awesome! Doug, thank you so much for joining us today. I’m hoping that we can get you on another show.
Doug: That will be really fun. You got it.
Meisha: Alright! Awesome! You have been listening to the Meisha Rouser Show. I’m Meisha, coaching you towards success. Thank you so much for listening.